tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post3158196813507421424..comments2024-03-19T19:34:23.525-07:00Comments on Comparative Video 101: "Everybody Loves Saturday Night"Jim Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14198555155411979643noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-56529076709777131252020-01-03T09:04:11.580-08:002020-01-03T09:04:11.580-08:00The Mariners were an excellent group that I enjoye...The Mariners were an excellent group that I enjoyed and remember well, but I always thought of them as a gospel group. I see that my error here was not to specify "first integrated vocal FOLK group, and I'll fix that soon. In addition to the Mariners, Mitch Miller's group generally had an African American or two, and if we're talking about popular music vocal groups in general, we also have to remember the Dell Vikings.Jim Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14198555155411979643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-47333126414872811432019-12-14T13:34:06.488-08:002019-12-14T13:34:06.488-08:00"the Tarriers became the first racially integ..."the Tarriers became the first racially integrated vocal group in America" <br /><br />What about the Mariners, prominently featured on the Arthur Godfrey show from the late 40s to the mid-50s?Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671340544713253064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-37161667552244791412011-09-01T14:04:30.693-07:002011-09-01T14:04:30.693-07:00Well, blogs are all about inference and speculatio...Well, blogs are all about inference and speculation, and of course Dave Guard left us with a bit of a mystery as to the origins of his arrangement, as you point out in your extended discussion on the origins of the song.<br /><br />I just re-read it (excellently presented and written), and you describe the KT tempo as "slow and relaxed" and "Calypsoesque." I wouldn't dispute that at all - in my article on "Bay of Mexico" I mention just how much Buzz Wheeler's syncopated bass lines add to both arrangements. I know all of the earlier recordings, including the '29 Grayson and Whitter; I'd call those "fast." <br /><br />When I saw the Lomax book with the "moderately fast" time mark, I responded to the "moderate" - the same speed at which the KT does "Sloop John B" on the same first album. To me, the NBD trio did excellent work on genuinely slow songs like "The Seine" and "Colorado Trail," among many others (and gradually disappearing from the recordings after DG left - most NBJ songs to me are rather more "moderate"). But I think of TD and SJB as "moderate" in comparison - and what I especially love about them is what I call the "quiet urgency" of the vocals, again something unique to the first incarnation of the group. For myself - I always remember "John B" as slower than it actually is precisely because of that "quiet urgency."<br /><br />So I think of the tempo as moderate rather than slow, as above - just a matter of terminology, really. It is definitely not fast. And there is no doubt in my mind either that the effect of the recorded version we hear is the product of Dave Guard's peculiar imagination - I'm guessing as well for the other unique element to the song, Nick Reynolds' wailing "Hang down....your head and cry" on the chorus after the second verse.Jim Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14198555155411979643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-29371315883383319612011-09-01T07:34:27.559-07:002011-09-01T07:34:27.559-07:00P.S. I think it's a stretch to suggest that Da...P.S. I think it's a stretch to suggest that Dave Guard got the idea for his arrangement for "Tom Dooley" from those two words in the Lomax book because without a metronome indication (beats per minute), which modern arrangers typically provide, we simply have no idea what tempo the Seegers had in mind (although in the same book they indicated that the well-known dance tune "Skip to My Lou," like "Tom Dooley," should be played moderately fast, if that tells us anything).<br /><br />More important, we have no way of knowing what Dave Guard made of those two words, if anything--although, to my mind, there is nothing fast, moderately or otherwise, about his version. <br /><br />Rather, I think Dave Guard arrived at the relaxed, easy-going tempo he chose for the Kingston Trio's version of "Tom Dooley," with its 2/4 rather than 4/4 feel, based on his own personal thoughts about the song and the tragic tale it tells. And I believe his tempo, compared to the earlier, speeded-up tempos used by Grayson & Whitter, Frank Warner, the Folksay Trio and the Tarriers, was and remains a major part of the appeal of the Kingston Trio version.Pete Curryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08045255520784494460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-45372938513708095482010-11-26T00:51:57.636-08:002010-11-26T00:51:57.636-08:00Okay, Jim. Send me your mailing address and I'...Okay, Jim. Send me your mailing address and I'll send you a copy of the Guard book. My email address is peterjohncurry@gmail.comPete Curryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08045255520784494460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-49387887330267178032010-11-23T16:38:15.310-08:002010-11-23T16:38:15.310-08:00Thanks for the correction, Pete! I did mention Rog...Thanks for the correction, Pete! I did mention Roger Sprung in this article as the originator of the "hitch" - and that little detail is one that I am 100%sure I picked up from your outstanding summary of the history of the song that I came across on <i>The Kingston Trio Liner Notes</i> site. I should have gone back and looked at the article before I wrote here because I forgot about the Folksay Trio recording - though my impression was that the Tarriers were a higher profile commercial group and a likelier source for the KT. And from the moment I bought my own copy of the Lomax book about 50 years ago, it was pretty clear where DG got the general approach to his arrangement, with the "moderately fast" rhythm prescribed by arrangers Charles and Ruth Seeger a notable difference between the KT and the Grayson&Whitter or Doc Watson versions.<br /><br />I couldn't agree with you more about why the KT's version was the successful one. I liked the Tarriers a lot, but they didn't possess the spark of genius of the original KT for the reasons you mentioned on most everything they did. I'll have to hear that Stinson recording; "Bay of Mexico" is my all-time favorite KT cut (there's an article from last March here on my blog about it).<br /><br />BTW - I have seen a copy of and admire greatly your <i>Pure Dave</i> - still scouring eBay for an affordable copy. Your contributions on the KT message boards are fondly remembered and sorely missed!<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />JimJim Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14198555155411979643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1875980412212682099.post-68470202727451040972010-11-23T13:28:11.813-08:002010-11-23T13:28:11.813-08:00Hi Jim: The first group to record "Tom Dooley...Hi Jim: The first group to record "Tom Dooley" was actually the Folksay Trio (Roger Sprung, Erik Darling and Bob Carey), who recorded it on an album titled "American Folksay, Volume 2" for the Stinson label in 1953 (which also featured "Round the Bay of Mexico," also covered by the Kingston Trio). Their version featured the syncopated "hitch" between the words "Tom" and "Dooley," which the Tarriers utilized as did the Kingston Trio. Thus, the KT could have learned the song from either recording. (However, neither group used the exact words the KT used. For those, they probably consulted John and Alan Lomax's 1947 collection, "Folk Song: USA," which includes the words exactly as sung by the Kingston Trio, minus a few minor modernizations.) <br /><br />As to why one version of a song succeeds while another fails: I suggest it has more to do with talent than timing. And in my opinion, the Tarriers’ (and the Folksay Trio’s) bad luck, if they had any, was not having Dave Guard to arrange the song, Bob Shane to sing lead on it and Nick Reynolds to add his wonderful harmonies. Regards, Pete CurryPete Curryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08045255520784494460noreply@blogger.com